help them as you know senators do during these things so he can rest his voice. you have ted cruz reading from i rand tonight on the senate floor. what i'm watching is nothing but a fundraising stunt at this point. >> i think ted cruz is a terrible wing man because his record is very short and very partisan. but others like ron wideman who has a long record, and one on civil liberties, came out to answer this because he says he is going to vote for brennan. but he came out to say we are going to push these questions. holder's letters about these important issues only came out despite being faced with similar requests from wideman and others, it only came out pursuant to this push this week to get the nomination done. we all know in other contexts, the way the senate will use, you know, certain hooks to try to get answers in oversight. they've also said to their

credit they're going to release the full memos to the senate and their legal staff, but that took years. i think that's another breakthrough. and rand paul didn't vote against hagel, he's been supportive of the president having other picks, so i don't think he is as bad as some of these republicans. >> ron wideman came out a long time ago, hours and hours ago, ari, back when they were actually talking about drone use in the way we understand it. they are now off into a zone that's just twilight zone stuff. rand paul said -- this is what he said. if you're armed and robbing and threatening people in a liquor store and people, and you come out with a weapon, i don't mind if you get shot by a drone or a rifle from a policeman. that's where we are now in the rand paul nonsense on the senate floor. the close, ari melber gets the

last word. we're out of time. thanks so much for joining us. >> thanks, lawrence. >> "hardball" is up next. beating around the bush. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. bush. how long have we heard that name in republican politics? bush. grand pop was senator from connecticut. father ran for the senate seat in texas. lost and got elected to the congress in houston. then went on to be ambassador of the u.n. got stuck during watergate. became ambassador to china and director of the cia. george herbert walker bush waited longer than his long name. then got to run as vice president with ronald reagan. ran again with reagan and won

for president at '88 and ran in '92 and lost. then came his sons young george and jeb bush. they ran in 1994. george won in texas. jeb lost in florida. two years after that george won the presidency. jeb after helping him win down in florida, won a second term in florida in 2002. then took a breather. and now he's back. can he -- the so-called smart one in the family -- get the top job? can republicans go to the trough one more time and drink another bush? six of the last nine presidential elections we've heard that name on the ticket. bush. does it grab you? does it scare hillary? would it reunite the republican party? does it scare hillary or should it? i'm joined by david corn and john feehery. bush is running around.

called laura back. now he's out there pushing a right of center -- far right of center immigration proposal which he's notched back from. but he's running for it. what's happening? >> he's putting himself out there. for the past few months after the republicans lost, people kept saying bush is the answer. bush can help us. bush can lead us out of the wilderness with latino voters. that's who they kept looking to. >> what was the timeline on this? when was bush high? >> well, i think starting with the election. >> then got blown away. >> blown away. the thing is, here he comes out. i think he's completely botched what he was supposed to be good at. >> made a bad move. people have all made bad moves in the beginning. but i want to know about positioning. is he positioned somewhere

between now if he sticks with this tougher position on immigration, is he positioned to the right of rubio and christie and to the left of the crazies out there like santorum? is he in the right place? >> i think he's in the right place, but it's really a narrow niche. i think the republicans are going to have a civil war about immigration between the rubios who want a path to citizenship and the ted cruzs and others who don't want to. >> by the way, let's talk about the combination of republicans and democrats. i think in the combination they're going to get something. your thoughts about your party and used to work to the top of the republican world. we were at the thing for bob michael last night. nice event, the former republican leader. we'd love to do this here. position people. is bush staking it out like his dad did when he moved to being pro-life and they all make these adjustments? is he in a position where he can jump ahead of rubio, christie. at the same time grab enough of the right to grab the party? >> listen. david said something important. jeb bush is an adult. and what the party needs is an

adult. i don't think he was hot at the election. he was hot before that. there were a lot of people that wanted jeb bush to run in the last election because we didn't have an adult. and a lot of conservatives did not feel mitt romney could handle it. >> it's my favorite word. i say growed up. i do it about diane feinstein and others. what you mean by grown up? >> someone that has the gravitas to say to the wings we're going to govern. the republican party needs to prove it can govern. when it can prove that, i think jeb bush is someone who can govern. he did a nice job as governor of florida. he's put conservative ideas into action. i think that's why a lot of republicans -- now, let's be clear. the revolutionary wing of the party does not like bush. the royalist wing of the party does like bush. for bush, he's got to beat the revolutionary wing. >> one indication of a possible run -- i think it's more than possible. i think it's probable.

might be a right wing shift on immigration by the former governor. in june last year he told charlie rose he supported a path to citizenship which is the key issue of this. will you or will you not let people who came here illegally become legal citizens? let's watch his response then. >> you have to deal with this issue. you can't ignore it. so either a path to citizenship which i would support, and that does put me probably out of the mainstream of most conservatives. or a path to legalization. a path to residency of some kind. >> well, listen to that. does he mean full citizenship or something that allows you to stay in the country but not being a voting member of the country? in his book he had a different take. quote, it is absolutely vital to the integrity of our immigration system that actions have consequences. in this case that those who violated the laws can remain but cannot obtain the cherished

fruits of citizenship. to do otherwise would signal once again that people who circumvent the system can still obtain the full benefit of american citizenship. let's see what he told chuck todd. let's listen to it. >> remember this is a proposal we attempted to put out prior to the election to create a consensus for conservatives to get in the game. because in november, prior to the election, we weren't even in the game. the game. >> so you think it's possible that the path to citizenship may be included in the eventual bill and are you going to be okay with that? >> look. i think we need comprehensive reform. if there is a path to citizenship that has enough of a realization that we have to respect the rule of law -- >> so you pay real fines -- >> and a longer period of time. >> you know, my problem with the bushes that i think in many ways as family people and citizens they're fine. but they charm you. they've always charmed us. george sr. is very likable.

w. when he was running everybody thought he was okay. i thought he was okay. i didn't know he was going to be this arch duke of cheney. i didn't know he was going to play that part. now this guy comes along. it's one thing to play ball and footsie with the right wing. is bush going to end up a neocon or a realist on foreign policy? a guy like jim baker. which would be your bet? >> my bet is he would go with the -- not the cheney crowd, the other crowd. i think he would be a realist. >> so we won't have another war every time a bush gets elected? >> i don't think we'd invade iran right away. we're two for two so far. i think he looked very romneyesque in his explanation. >> both bushes had had two a piece. >> i think he looked romneyesque in his explanation of policy. but look at this. if the primary in florida was next year, could he beat marco rubio? i think given this -- >> that's not how we run for president?

>> you got to get the primary. but i don't think he could beat rubio in his own state. >> what does that prove? >> it proves i don't think he has the claim. i know people like you who want an adult leader for your party love him. i don't see how he plays with the base of the republican party. >> go with that point. he seems too moderate for your far out wing. >> i don't think he would run against marco rubio. they're friends. i don't think that's going to be a problem. i do think he has a problem with the wing of the party that is still against the war in iraq. and he's got to figure out a way -- because there is a wing. there is a libertarian wing that did not like iraq. he's got to answer those questions about the iraq war. >> but also to foreign policy, i think the yahoo wing of the party, the people who cheered when they talked about self-deportation. >> can we do something

nonideological. you're left, he's right. when a party gets beaten in an election they thought it was going to win because they had a good shot last november. we all agree on that. nobody knew except nate silver and a few others. does it go off to his natural poll like left or right? or does it naturally go wait we lost a close one. what do people do in their parties? go to the wings or to the center? >> after reagan lost in '76 to ford and ford lost to carter, then the party went back to reagan and he won. so i think it can go both ways. i think it really depends again on the people who select the nominees which are the grassroots of the party. and i think right now you've seen them move to the right. >> i don't know who's running to his right to convene him. >> to whose right? >> jeb bush. name one serious candidate to run to his right. >> that's the point. who's the serious canned? >> santorum is not getting elected to anything ever again

as long as he lives. certainly not in pennsylvania. newt gingrich is not going to get elected ever again. they don't count. bush may count. if hillary doesn't run, i think he's a player. >> there are three top candidates i think. bob mcdonnell of virginia, chris christie of new jersey, and jeb bush. i think they're all governors and fine choices. >> put your hillary head on for a minute. we do focus on this show more than anything else. >> we know this. >> this is your wheel house. in hillary clinton's head and she's been through one loss and a couple wins with her husband. she did well in new york politics. we'll talk about it later in the show. had a great run as secretary of state. what's she thinking about?

is she afraid of the unknown or the known established candidate like bush or is she less afraid of him than a guy like christie who might grab the reagan democrats? >> my bet is right now she is not worrying about who is going to be the republican nominee. she still has to get into her own head whether or not she's going to run. a good friend of hers told me just a couple weeks ago she'd like to be president but she doesn't want to run to be president because it's really going through hell. >> one of the things you want to think about whether you run against this guy or that guy. >> i think there is so much for the republican party to work out. they have so many issues. >> the one candidate she'd be most afraid of i think would be a chris christie. he would go after the middle class, the blue collar guys, and also do well in the northeast. >> i'll tell you one thing. in that election, i'm just guessing here.

there'll be a lot of men and husbands and wives going into the voting booth thinking they're voting for the same person and i have the sense the guy may vote for christie and gals will vote for hillary. but you don't know. if he comes off as a serious moderate republican for the big eastern guy, i don't know. >> christie's the personality where if he stays disciplined he'll do good. there's a possibility he can't. we were talking about boxers before we come on. the last time bush ran was 2002. that's an age in politics. >> hillary clinton has not been in the game for awhile too. it'll be interesting to see if she's go i think to run. >> i like one thing about jeb bush. he's really serious about education. i think that's the key issue. the long-term assimilation of people coming to this country developing american civics, american culture. assimilation is going to be our biggest challenge in the next 20 years. i think everybody who loves america wants it to happen. anyway, thank you. and bush believes in that. he's got a family that's assimilating. i hope i didn't offend anybody. but i believe in the united culture ultimately. we got to have this land is our key to what we love. thank you both. david corn. and thank you john feehery. coming up, guess who's coming to dinner?

i've been saying for months for president obama to stop being aloof. tonight they're going to have a bunch of -- not mcconnell or boehner. the president's trying to get behind enemy lines having dinner with 12 republican senators who may be open to making deals and getting past this gridlock. it's like the first supper. not the last supper. anyway, also remember when the word patriot meant something good? now so-called patriots tend to be racist who want to overthrow the government. and a new study says the hate groups have reached an all-time high. by the way, we're going to look at what obama's presidency has done to create this right wing hatred towards the government. and cutting indiscriminately was fine for republicans. but no money for white house tours? cut the whole bunch but not white house tours. the faux outrage is coming up in the sideshow. let me finish tonight with the hatred of obama.

if it's not ethnic and racial, what is it? this is "hardball," the place for politics.

this guy is interesting. this guy is interesting. republican senator rand paul of kentucky spent the whole i did filibustering. senator paul took to the floor objecting to the drone policy and vowed to speak until i can no longer speak. and some time around midday, he made this ill-advised reference i think to adolph hitler. why do they do this? >> out of that chaos, hitler was elected. democratically. they elected him out of this chaos. the point isn't that anybody in our country is hitler. i'm not accusing anybody of being that evil. i think it's an overplayed and misused analogy. but what i am saying is that in a democracy, you could some day elect someone who is very evil. that's why we don't give the

power to the government. >> if he's not talking about hitler, why is he talking about hitler? paul went on to say he wasn't talking about the president, not obama or anyone else in the world. just talking about hitler. i don't know. brennan's confirmation is expected to pass once rand paul stops talking. we'll be right back. and that much freshness is gonna take some getting used to... [ sniffing ] yep. it's amazing what a single scoop of gain freshness can do. let's see what you got. rv -- covered. why would you pay for a hotel? i never do. motorcycles -- check. atv. i ride those. do you? no. boat. house. hello, dear. hello. hello. oh! check it -- [ loud r&b on car radio ] i'm going on break! the more you bundle, the more you save.

now, that's progressive. because all these whole grains aren't healthy unless you actually eat them ♪ multigrain cheerios. also available in delicious peanut butter. healthy never tasted so sweet. ♪ i want a weed free season, that's how i roll ♪ ♪ so i reach for roundup extended control ♪ ♪ with the all-new, no pump, one-touch wand ♪ ♪ it kills weeds dead and keeps weeds gone ♪ [ whip cracks ] ♪ roundup extended control ♪ i just spray them weeds, then spray them cracks ♪ ♪ the weeds are gone, and they won't be back ♪ ♪ driveway, patio, i just spray once ♪ ♪ and it's adios weeds for up to four sweet months ♪ [ whip cracks ] ♪ roundup extended control [ male announcer ] roundup extended control ♪ yeha with the new one-touch wand. [ whip cracks ]

there is a caucus of common sense up on capitol hill. it's just it's a silent group right now, and we want to make sure their voices start getting heard. in the coming days and weeks, i'm going to keep on reaching out to them. >> welcome back to "hardball." tonight president obama attempts to form that common sense caucus. at a neutral location. it's the jefferson hotel. looks pretty swanky here in washington.

there's the senators up there. all part of an effort to work around mitch mcconnell and john boehner who are committed and have said so to not making any deal involved in not raising revenue. but to no avail. and this time he'll skip them out of the whole thing and right into the rank and file for compromise. at least that's what it looks like. lindsey graham commented on putting the group together. let's listen to lindsey graham. >> how do you say no to the president of the united states who would like to have dinner with some of your colleagues? you don't. when the president asked that i get together a group, i willingly and i was honored to try to do that. where this goes, i don't know. >> see how to explain the whole thing. almost apologizing for meeting with the president.

the president will meet separately with the democratic and republican caucuses in both the house and the senate. joining me right now nia-malika henderson who covers all this. and former mayor willie brown. thank you for joining us. i want to talk about the appearance of this and the reality of this, which is more important? >> it is the appearance of it. for all reasons fall beyond anything we can ever fathom, this is the kind of thing that should have been done from the first day that the president was elected. he should have been able to develop a relationship with every person holding office one on one by first name. many times you get better results out of those relationships than you do out of substantive merit. he's attempting to do that, and that's proper.

>> nia, i think there's a part of this that bugs me a bit which is sort of the staging of it. if you want to make friends with somebody, you have to say let's meet for a drink after work or however it's done. i don't do this anymore. let's meet and have a hamburger somewhere. do you stage it with such pretense, such ruffles and flourishes? it reminds me of the henry gates beer time. it was so choreographed you wonder how they can speak without being ratted out. don't they want to talk off the record? it seems to me they would. >> that's true. and the white house is the sort of background, off the record conversations the president has been having with people behind the scenes. not necessarily of the press getting readouts of the meetings. this is much more formal and close to what he did in the first months of his presidency. this isn't something the president has been good at. let's just face it. he isn't good at it in terms of reaching out to members of his own party let alone to republicans. i think this group, it's significant he left graham take the lead on this.

and he has taken people that i think represent this common sense caucus. and also these are people who were left over from that gang of six in 2011 who wanted to move towards a bargain. >> before we start doing the -- what do you call it? the pollyanna gifts here, let me get a few things straight. mr. mayor, one of the people you would not include on a caucus on pluto. he's wisconsin senator ron john. john voted to filibuster chuck hagel. and last month he called the president's re-election a body blow to americans. a body blow to freedom. and in a fox interview johnson said they're in trouble. >> i don't quite honestly believe speaker boehner would be speaker if that happens. i think he would lose the speakership. >> so does that guy belong in the common sense caucus where he basically threatened the speaker with his job for sitting down with the president. what he's doing tonight to sit down at a restaurant. it's a nice restaurant. it's a nice dining room. i don't know who's paying the

bill tonight, but you expect anything to come out of this guy ron johnson? >> not at all. as a matter of fact, if you're going to deal with somebody as far away from the president as this ron johnson, you do so literally one on one and you do so in the darkness of night. because let me tell you. in that meeting, in that dinner, he is going to be the guy who becomes the leak. he's going to be the guy that leads the identification of the so-called traitors. he's going to be the guy that places bad blood among everybody. >> thank you. this is why i love you. you are so good. nia, this is what's going to happen tonight. you and the other beat reporters have nailed out the people you think you can get a call from or answer from at 10:15 tonight when they're out of the room. you probably got corker ready and lindsey graham's ready. you'll say who was the friendliest? who talked revenues? right? >> absolutely. >> nia.

you're going to try to catch somebody. >> yes, yes. i'll be staking it out. i got to leave in a couple minutes, as a matter of fact, to start staking out the territory. but yeah. i mean, i think people like johnson, that's why this group has credibility. it does represent all of the wings of the party. somebody like johnson, somebody like kelly ayotte, somebody like coburn who's got i think both moderate tendencies but also some leverage on the right side of the party. so you know, maybe it's because i'm a good southern baptist. hope springs eternal. i'm someone with some faith. maybe something will come out of this. >> you're the southern baptist. you're the hopeful one. let me go to the more secular fella here, mayor. let me go to a couple names here. i think i know why some of these guys are showing up. pat toomey will have a tough

re-election no matter who runs against him. bob corker has a serious race. he will have one. kelly ayotte is from a real state which is always purple, that's new hampshire. there are some people that want to know what a general election looks like. it'll be good for them to sit down with the president? >> it will be very good for them to sit down with the president. but the environment, the jefferson is not the place you want to develop relationships. he should have taken them to the white house. taken them on a tour of the white house. >> they are so neutral territory. >> this is the way you look at things, the new journalists today. what in the world besides metaphor does neutral territory mean? it's a metaphor. what does it mean neutral? how is a hotel more neutral than

meeting at the white house? >> i think there are a lot of neutral things going on here. number one, graham is the one who assembled this group. and the other being the white house extended the invitations. it's away from the white house. it's in d.c. obviously this is a really swanky hotel. >> i would invite a guy -- i would invite another member of the senate if i were the president, i would invite them to go bowling in the executive building. he's not that great at the game. he'd have some fun. at the end of the night you can laugh about their bowling scores for the rest of their lives. this thing looks like a setup. it looks like the henry gates beer outside with joe biden. >> it's a total setup. there's no way you call lindsey graham up and said put together a caucus and bring some friends over. i'm going to try to create inside of the republican operation a group that's going to be able to be helpful to me the president. >> somebody like corker is somebody who's reached across

the aisle. somebody like him was on the gang of six trying to make a grand bargain. that's what the president wants to do. these are the people that could possibly -- >> hope springs eternal from the southern baptist lady. thank you. up next congressional republicans are just finding about -- they're just fine with these indiscriminate spending cuts unless they're the ones that have to explain to their constituents that they can't tour the white house anymore. those are all canceled. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ female announcer ] going to sleep may be easy, but when you wake up in the middle of the night it can be frustrating. it's hard to turn off and go back to sleep.

intermezzo is the first and only prescription sleep aid approved for use as needed in the middle of the night when you can't get back to sleep. it's an effective sleep medicine you don't take before bedtime. take it in bed only when you need it and have at least four hours left for sleep. do not take intermezzo if you have had an allergic reaction to drugs containing zolpidem, such as ambien. allergic reactions such as shortness of breath or swelling of your tongue or throat may occur and may be fatal. intermezzo should not be taken if you have taken another sleep medicine at bedtime or in the middle of the night or drank alcohol that day. do not drive or operate machinery until at least 4 hours after taking intermezzo and you're fully awake. driving, eating, or engaging in other activities while not fully awake without remembering the event the next day have been reported. abnormal behaviors may include aggressiveness, agitation, hallucinations, or confusion. alcohol or taking other medicines that make you sleepy may increase these risks.

in depressed patients, worsening of depression, including risk of suicide, may occur. intermezzo, like most sleep medicines, has some risk of dependency. common side effects are headache, nausea, and fatigue. so if you suffer from middle-of-the-night insomnia, ask your doctor about intermezzo and return to sleep again. ♪

back to "hardball." now to the sideshow. first the blame game continues now that the massive overhaul of spending cuts kicked in. but the republicans seem to be incensed about one particular part of the cuts. >> what they're going to do is shut off white house tours. they're going to stop them. >> they're offering an agreement

to get in there. and that's it. but they want to put in maximum pain. so they say let's cut that off. >> it's so childish. >> i have a suspicion. if they kept that off the hit list of cuts, those people would have hit the president hardest on that. but the alligator tears continue to flow in the congress. here's louie gohmert. remember him? offering a solution. >> none of the funds made available by a division of this act may be used to transport the president to or from a golf course until public tours of the white house resume. >> you can put that in the gohmert pile. anyway, i detect some wit in that demand. but gohmert is not alone. tom graves of georgia called cutting off the white house tours an extreme result. people have to get a request of the tour through congress. meaning gohmert and others have to turn down their own

constituents from back home. they don't like doing that when they ask for a tour of the white house. next, we know even with all the infighting democrats know spending cuts should be a top priority. so it's no surprise a budget release by house gop this week is chock-full of them. none of the fends made available in this act may be distributed to the community organizations for reform now. that group's also known as acorn. but here's why it won't make an impact. it won't have anything to do with budget woes. acorn hasn't existed for three years. and the fact that it got chopped out of their budget, the republicans' so-called budget is yet another sign of the republicans' lingering obsession of hating acorn. a ppp poll after the 2012 elections found that 49% of republicans across the country believe the defunct group acorn was the reason president obama won the election. he won the election in their

hearts and heads because he was helped by a group called acorn that doesn't exist. is that insanity? finally. shaq and john kerry are in agreement on. it comes in this snapshot. dennis rodman pretending to play diplomat in north korea. >> dennis rodman was a great basketball player. and as a diplomat, he was a great basketball player. that's where we'll leave it. >> i think we as people should understand our roles in life. i think people -- certain people should leave the diplomacy to diplomats. >> really? >> that's a very risky move what he did. >> i always liked shaq. there's always something about that guy i liked. i like and respect it. i see why now. up next, a new report says the anti-government groups hit an all-time high just last year. up eight fold over the past four years of the obama presidency. wonder if there's a connection to having the first african-american president and the nuts going wild and growing?

you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. ♪

welcome back to "hardball." the crazies are still on the

rise. a study by the southern poverty law center finds the number of anti-government patriot groups has exploded over the last four years. according to the study, these groups typically believe that the federal government is conspireing to take americans' guns away from them and destroy their liberties as it paves the way for a global one-world government. these are groups like the constitution party, we are change, tyranny response team, and americans for a free republic. and these anti-government patriot groups have skyrocketed a number during president obama's time in office. there were only 149 groups in 2008. in 2012 there's over 1300. look at the chart there. yesterday the southern poverty law center sent a letter to homeland security secretary janet napolitano warning more growth could happen. and brian levin is with the study for hate and extremism.

gentlemen, i want you to start tonight -- it's your report, mark, so lead the way here. let me ask you this. i'm going to get into this in my close tonight on the show. i look at obama as a perfect american. i don't mean politically. we can agree left and right. you can argue about the drones, fiscal policy and all that stuff. but as a citizen. he went to school, never broke a law, raised a wonderful family, good husband, good family. i don't think he's got a speeding ticket. the guy does everything right. and he's really been pretty moderate on guns until the horror of newtown. i don't know what they're so afraid of him for except he happens to be black. is there some reason why he has sparked this explosion in right wing organizing? >> well, i think like you say, chris, i mean, it has to do with his color. what i would say is that with a

lot of these groups it's not visceral clamlike racism. it's not we want to send people back to africa or along those lines. it's more i like at the white house, i see a black man there, i feel the culture is changing around me, by the way the economy is terrible. i can't get a job or i'll lose the one i do have. and it melds together in a feeling i've lost my country. somehow this is not the country my forefathers created. so i think there's racism in there. >> let me argue that. there's so much of america that remains traditional. smalltown american life is very much smalltown american life. our religions are still our religions. i mean, movies can be racy but you can ignore their existence. television's pretty tame. what is it that really rocks them? that really makes them go my god it's not my life. i'm still looking for it. communities change ethnically. with something new, it's hard to accept sometimes. but these people live out in the

rocky mountain areas, the northwest. there's not much ethnic change going on in their lives, is there? >> there's more ethnic change in more places than you think. i lived in alabama which was a black people and white people area. now there's a latino hispanic population. but there's also cultural changes like for instance same-sex marriage. obviously including majorities of americans are in favor. but for people of that thought it's a tough pill to swallow. certainly it's true. you don't have to watch racy tv, you don't have to see madonna on mtv or whatever it is. i think there's a feeling of things changing and changing quickly. >> luckily for us our marriages are really the relationship between two people. me and my wife, my queen.

it has very little to do with anybody else luckily. let me go to you, brian. maybe it's logical in their point of view the way they're thinking of demographic change. but guns, immigration, and gays. is that what you look at when you look at the people organizing hate groups? >> i think it's a lot of it, but we have to put it into context. the folklore of the far right and i'm not talking about mitt romney supporters. i'm talking about people who have opted out of our political process. and that's what problematic. these people see the terra firma under them shifting as something that angered them before no longer see them as angering them. >> who do they root for? >> they don't root for anybody now. >> root for rand paul? pat buchanan? they must love ted cruz. come on. >> look. i think you hit a nerve. and what that is is there is now a part of mainstream politics

which aligns with these kind of conspiracy theories and are getting away with what are traditional conservative republican anchors. that is small government, personal responsibility. the idea that we are part of a political process and if we didn't win this time, we'll try again. now we're hearing succession. >> i like the way you talk. that makes sense. but what happened to the crazy -- i call them crazy because they have evidence to the opposite. why is donald trump with the sophistication of new york city around him, why does he pander to these haters? any time a guy with the money that has everything going for them and they can point to a guy like that and say he's not

facing financial problems. he's not facing marital problems. he believes all the nutty stuff i believe. he panders to them. how does that fit into this stuff? >> who in the world is to say what donald trump really believes? i think the reason people act the way they do in large part is because there's a base out there. you know, i also think that there's a kind of reverse part of this equation which is the characters like donald trump, like a lou dobbs formerly on tv. there are a number of people out there who are essentially acting as transmitters. who are bringing ideas from the very, very far fringes of the society into the mainstream. so we've got birtherism, we've got birthers. all kinds of conspiracies. >> i'm hearing the same music from the more sophisticated and least sophisticated. but it's all the same.

the country's turning brown and black and you're becoming irrelevant -- and gay. it's not all the messages of trump. he sells the idea our president snuck into this country and pretended to be who he is. and it's all a fraud. i think that's dangerous talk to. >> i think it's worth adding how -- >> one of the things we're seeing here on both sides of the political spectrum and it's important to recognize that, we certainly have a risk towards more of the extreme right wing. >> who on the left is talking nutty right now? >> charles barron is talking nutty from the left. the truthers are talking nutty from the left. we have the people with anonymous, with all kinds of conspiracy theories. one thing i think is important and that is conspiracy theories and the decoupling from our democracy occurring on both sides of the political spectrum. saying bush was the antichrist as is obama possibly. >> i don't buy that it's symmetric here. there are more birthers than truthers. >> that's right. the idea there's an equivalency of the far left and far right i

think is ridiculous. i agree with brian on that there are conspiracy theories on both sides. >> this argument will continue -- >> the internet -- >> brian, perhaps i could talk a little, too, huh? >> we have conspirists on the lift. look at the truthers. look at all this kind of stuff on the left. we have it on the right as well. what i agree with mark is is that it is much more mainstream with regard to the institutions of the -- >> the republicans put in their platform, that's the difference. mark, your last thoughts quickly. >> just that. look. it's the republican party that has adopted the agenda 21 conspiracy. the idea that there's a u.n. plot to strip away private property rights. it's just ridiculous to describe the extreme left at this point in our history. >> thanks so much. we're going to have more on this as the year goes on. okay, brian. brian, we'll have you back too. thank you so much. up next, if hillary clinton runs for president, she's got to --

hillary clinton's top achievements as secretary of state. stick around. "hardball" is back after this.

if you really want to know someone, travel with them. in that case, my next guest, she is sitting here, has extraordinary knowledge of the former secretary of state, hillary clinton. as foreign correspondent for the bbc, kim ghattas spent four years covering secretary of state hillary clinton as she went around the world, including one-on-one interviews. she writes about it in her book, "the secretary: a journey with hillary clinton." so you know her. and you like her. >> i'm a journalist. i give a fair and balanced assessment in my book of her tenure. >> hardcopy. you have to write the encyclopedic britannica that stands the test of time. what did she do that the secretaries before her didn't do? how is she unique?

>> well, first and foremost, she restored her own political fortunes going from a defeated political candidate in 2008 to one of the most popular politicians in the united states with ratings close to 70%. you know, popular with republicans as well, although of course if she decides to go back into politics, those ratings will go down again. but also, she has found new ways of getting business done for the united states in the diplomatic field around the world at a time when the u.s. doesn't have all the money that it wants to get things done around the world. >> so what is the hillary difference? what did she accomplish in new ways? >> smart power. look at libya. you can't do it all. you can't do all the heavy lifting on your own. you get others on board like the french, the british. >> did she help overthrow gadhafi, could you say? >> indirectly, yes. i don't think that was the stated goal initially, but certainly that was the result. >> what about the middle east, generally? has she made any progress, anybody in the last four years, the president included getting netanyahu at the table with the palestinians?

>> there was no progress during the bush administration either. so you have to look at the big picture. and keep in mind that the parties on the ground don't always play ball with the united states. and it's easy to blame the united states for not doing enough. but the parties on the ground weren't necessarily interested. >> where was hillary clinton on the issues i care about war and peace, iraq. did she support the decision to basically get out of there, which is what we have done, end the war, leave? >> i think she would have liked to see more troops stay behind, a more forceful presence. bought the end of the day, it involved negotiations with the iraqis. >> they wouldn't protect our troops from litigation. >> absolutely. and it's the same problem you're facing in afghanistan. >> and where is she on afghanistan? does she want us to get out at the end of next year? is she with the president on that? >> she is very loyal. and she has not indicated that she is not with the president on

that. at the end of the day, that is what defined her president with the president, loyalty. if she decides to run for 2016, and it's a big if, she will have to show how she was different from president obama in some of those key decision, whether it's afghanistan or whether it's syria. >> if she were calling the shots on iran, where would she be on iran and its nuclear program? would she be a notch or two the hawkish side of the president? >> perhaps a little bit. but this administration very much was on the same page when it comes to dealing with iran. tough diplomacy. but it requires the iranians to want to reach out to the united states. it doesn't always -- it's not always enough for the united states to want something. look at burma. the burmese decided that they wanted to reach out. that's why that effort worked. >> did you ever get to ask in the 18 interviews if shi thousand dollar thought she made a mistake or was right on iraq when she supported the resolution to allow us to go to wore? did she ever say it was a smart

or a bad decision it? was a big issue in her election with obama. >> it is a big issue. i didn't ask her than during my 19 interviews. were very much looking forward. but she did address that herself in many of her statements. i think that what she does very much is keep looking forward and trying to figure out a way of moving forward for the united states. >> anyway, thank you, kim ghattas. i'm sure it's a great book. it's called "the secretary." i'm sure everybody watching this show loves hillary and wants to read it. >> it's a fair and accurate assessment of her tenure. >> just like us. >> absolutely. it's hard to turn off and go back to sleep. intermezzo is the first and only prescription sleep aid approved for use as needed in the middle of the night when you can't get back to sleep. it's an effective sleep medicine you don't take before bedtime. take it in bed only when you need it and have at least four hours left for sleep. do not take intermezzo if you have had an allergic reaction to drugs containing zolpidem, such as ambien. allergic reactions such as shortness of breath or swelling of your tongue or throat may occur and may be fatal. intermezzo should not be taken if you have taken another sleep medicine at bedtime or in the middle of the night or drank alcohol that day.

do not drive or operate machinery until at least 4 hours after taking intermezzo and you're fully awake. driving, eating, or engaging in other activities while not fully awake without remembering the event the next day have been reported. abnormal behaviors may include aggressiveness, agitation, hallucinations, or confusion. alcohol or taking other medicines that make you sleepy may increase these risks. in depressed patients, worsening of depression, including risk of suicide, may occur. intermezzo, like most sleep medicines, has some risk of dependency. common side effects are headache, nausea, and fatigue. so if you suffer from middle-of-the-night insomnia, ask your doctor about intermezzo and return to sleep again. ♪